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Uncertainty, transitory and actuality - IgnorantGod - 02-28-2026
Good morning (it's always 'morning' somewhere anyway) everyone!
I present to RN a small journey inside IgnorantGod's current belief, or rather the one he'd like to 'be'. That is, the current 'color' of self-delusion!
As an introduction, I offer two quotes attributed to Heraclitea, "the weeping philosopher" :
Quote:"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man."
And :
Quote:"The meaning of the river flowing is not that all things are changing so that we cannot encounter them twice but that some things stay the same only by changing."
Here's a question : What makes the river, the same?
It is, in fact, the ship of Theseus paradox. However, it is a paradox only by context. In reality, even if all parts of the ship is replaced, as long as those using it and those recognizing the form, indentify it as "the ship of Theseus", then it is. If someone changes its name, and that name spreads, so that at some point, most recognizes it as such, then it is no longer "the ship of Theseus". At least that's how I view it.
Hence a river is the same as long as there are people naming and mapping it, even if its water is always changing. Its location, and the people interacting with it define its indentity. Although, this makes sense only if there's something to assume a 'one out of the rest'. A bit like self-awareness is the act of assuming itself as a 'one'. The act of naming is precisely that. A 'name', or rather a word, is essentially separating a 'one out of the rest'.
Consequently, the above is the foundation of conceptualization, and compartmentalization. This allows abstraction, and formulation, or recognition of patterns; that which lies beneath interactions between the different 'ones' and the 'stage' (environment). Note that I don't particularly see much difference between a 'stage' and an 'actor' (assumed 'one'), since the 'stage' can be interprated as made of multiple smaller 'ones'.
Now, this was supposed to be an introduction, and it seems to have taken a bigger proportion than initially expected. This thread has three sections, as implied by the title. The first one, which I'll start after this paragraph, is about uncertainty. It is somewhat of an argument against the belief that human can discover and establish such a thing as 'Absolute Truth' through logic, mathematics and/or observation by using Godel's Incompleteness Theorems and the limits of physical matter. The second part is about liminality, the transitory phase between two more or less 'stable' state of rites of passage. And finally the last section is referring to the similarity between measurement problem of quantum mechanics and the experience of the present.
And so, off I go!
Uncertainty : One cannot know 'everything' about 'anything'
First of all, here's a link on Godel's Incompleteness Theorems
The first theorem :
Quote:"The first incompleteness theorem states that in any consistent formal system F within which a certain amount of arithmetic can be carried out, there are statements of the language of F which can neither be proved nor disproved in F."
And the second :
Quote:"According to the second incompleteness theorem, such a formal system cannot prove that the system itself is consistent (assuming it is indeed consistent)."
It is important, when extrapolating an idea/statement from one concept to a more general attribute, to specify the context of that starting point. As such, the link above do describe well the limits of both theorems, within mathematics itself, and to any efforts at generalizing his theorems in philosophy.
Quote:"In order to understand Gödel’s theorems, one must first explain the key concepts essential to it, such as “formal system”, “consistency”, and “completeness”. Roughly, a formal system is a system of axioms equipped with rules of inference, which allow one to generate new theorems."
The quote above from the introduction is enough for this thread in regards to its application within mathematics. For anyone interested, it is a fascinating read, however it's honestly way over my paygrade. This section is my attempt at supporting uncertainty by generalizing the statement that one cannot derive or prove all axioms of a system with solely itself. The "system" here can be replaced by philosophy, mathematics or observations.
I tried to shorten this, but the following paragraph do alerts well of taking context into account, and so I kept it full :
Quote:"A common misunderstanding is to interpret Gödel’s first theorem as showing that there are truths that cannot be proved. This is, however, incorrect, for the incompleteness theorem does not deal with provability in any absolute sense, but only concerns derivability in some particular formal system or another. For any statement A unprovable in a particular formal system F, there are, trivially, other formal systems in which A is provable (take A as an axiom). On the other hand, there is the extremely powerful standard axiom system of Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory (denoted as ZF, or, with the axiom of choice, ZFC; see the section on the axioms of ZFC in the entry on set theory), which is more than sufficient for the derivation of all ordinary mathematics. Now there are, by Gödel’s first theorem, arithmetical truths that are not provable even in ZFC. Proving them would thus require a formal system that incorporates methods going beyond ZFC. There is thus a sense in which such truths are not provable using today’s “ordinary” mathematical methods and axioms, nor can they be proved in a way that mathematicians would today regard as unproblematic and conclusive."*Italics mine
The last part that I've put in italic is the one that I have particular interest for here. This is what I extrapolate to philosophy, mathematics and observation. Rationalism often critics materialism for its effort at trying to find 'Truths' with limited perception and subsenquently assume Logos to be the 'key' to discover such. However, from where I stand, it seems logic and mathematics are themselves limited, and thus cannot prove themselves with only themselves, let alone the universe.
Human perception being limited means that human thoughts are also limited, or so I believe. Therefore, in order to prove or disprove human statements, one "...would thus require a formal system that incorporates methods going beyond..." human. But then again, that refers to human as one is today. Provided there was a techno-singularity whereas human modifies its body and brain with technology and digital 'features', who knows what it may find, discover or elaborate. If anything, it'll probably be able to perform such methods that go 'beyond' human. And to close the loop, it would probably still be unable to 'escape' some limits.
So yeah, I believe in Uncertainty, while being uncertain of such prevalence of uncertitude. Basically, I don't know if I don't know, or if I'm self-deluding at not knowing. But who knows what I'll be tomorrow? Since everything, including the 'self' seems to be in constant change, as the second part elaborate.
Transitory : 'Everything' is ever in the act of 'becoming'
Liminality, the transitory phase of rites of passage. It is described as the state whereas initiates aren't entirely separated from their former state nor are they entirely in their next, and thus are somewhat in a vague and ambiguous 'position' in between. One of the most emphasized aspect was the dangerosity of such state, both for initiates and for societies, hence why they were mostly secluded outside the village during that phase, and had 'guides' or 'masters of ceremonies' alongside.
Thresholds were seen as transitory space that often marked the begining or ending of a transition between two phases. They still embody the separation between two spaces, most common being the separation of one's territory (home) and the wild (its becoming increasingly wild outside since covid me thinks). But thresholds are spaces themselves, not really inside yet not really outside neither. The act of defining the liminal phase/state/space is purely dependent on the notion of stability. Rather than being defined as a stable state itself, it is defined by those, as an in between, a byproduct from 'lack of' stability.
Such concept can, and has been extrapolated. In his book "The Trickster and the Paranormal", George P. Hansen use the term liminal to define anything in between two boundaries, such as, words. Things that cannot be described with words, that which is in between words. One can also refer an individual, a 'liminal person', whom boundaries of the 'self' are blurried. In short, liminality somewhat refers to the limits of comcepts, the more one tries to define the boundaries between two things, the more they become blurried. Just like dawn and twilight are neither 'day' or 'night'. They are their own 'thing', and yet can only be defined as a transition between the those two, because of their 'more stable' appearance.
Without the concept of stability, everything is in motion, and hence, changing constantly. Just as the second quote of Heraclitea above, except extrapolated to 'everything'. This, in my opinion, also includes the 'self'. It also marks the transition to the third and last part of this thread.
Actuality : One cannot 'know' itself, only 'experience' itself
That one came to me as an "Ah-Ha" moment quite recently. I was juggling with the idea that I can't 'know' myself since I can only analyze 'me' after the fact. That is, after the first reaction of a stimuli. Even with introspection and retrospection, it doesn't garantee that, provided a sufficiently similar event occurred, I'd react and/or think/experience such the same way. Only once it happened, if it does, can I state; "I reacted like 'this'" and "thought like 'that'", which are words I've learned of which I also assume means what I experienced.
That's about when I realized it was somewhat similar to the measurement problem in quantum mechanics. Somewhat because I don't know if the 'self' potential (something akin to wavefunctions) is in superpositions and only collapse take a value at 'now'. It is not the Von Neumann-Wigner Interpretation, of which, from the few bits I could glean here and there on the net, is a theory about quantum consciousness collapsing the wavefunction. It is more specifically the 'self' in relation with 'itself', that is, can only ever 'experience' it, not 'know' it. There are no way to garantee the accuracy of any predictions, unless it happens, just like the result of the measurement is still somewhat 'random' and unpredictable (for now at least) until measured and observed.
The 'present' is the actualization of potential 'outcomes'. When looking at the 'self' from this perspective, the 'self' is a pool of potential reactions, thoughts and 'experiences' that collapse at the 'now'. I'm still wondering if the 'now' is somewhat 'flowing' or 'bipping'. The latter did bring an interesting idea in that 'reality' could actually collapse and 'reconstruct' at each bips, and thus was an entirely different 'thing' than the previous bip!
Alright, I think I've elaborate enough for now on the three main points that make up my current state of 'view' of 'reality' and 'existence'. Seems like it was 'the day' that conherency's on my side! I don't recall a time I formulated my point of view that much.
Thank you for reading, and looking forward for your opinions! It is my hope that this thread may bring an interesting discussion on any subjects related to the general topic of 'existence', 'experience', etc.
Cheers!
RE: Uncertainty, transitory and actuality - babushka - 02-28-2026
I'm still stuck on interface at present. Super quickly probing "Uncertainty", entropy , order. Emergent complexity. 'transitory'. 'actuality' at the interface something like that
thinking about finding fractals in noise patterns
https://www.manula.com/manuals/fxhome/ignite-pro/5/en/topic/fractal-noise
Will read again later, short on time
RE: Uncertainty, transitory and actuality - babushka - 02-28-2026
When you talk about experience, what is that?
RE: Uncertainty, transitory and actuality - IgnorantGod - 02-28-2026
(02-28-2026, 10:31 PM)babushka Wrote: When you talk about experience, what is that?
What an individual live. "What it is like to be..."
I'm referring to conscious experiences, what we still can't explain with observations alone (as of yet at least).
RE: Uncertainty, transitory and actuality - babushka - 03-01-2026
(02-28-2026, 11:57 PM)IgnorantGod Wrote:(02-28-2026, 10:31 PM)babushka Wrote: When you talk about experience, what is that?
What an individual live. "What it is like to be..."
I'm referring to conscious experiences, what we still can't explain with observations alone (as of yet at least).
'What it is like to be..observations'..you have senses, without words you don't describe anything, unless you paint or make music.
How will you observer what you can't sense? Sense is registering change. Without it there is no experience. An 'objection' at maximum potential is dark, when it gives off light it is releasing energy. Potential energy always exists.
something like space is the canvas and time is the paint
RE: Uncertainty, transitory and actuality - IgnorantGod - 03-01-2026
(03-01-2026, 12:22 AM)babushka Wrote:(02-28-2026, 11:57 PM)IgnorantGod Wrote:(02-28-2026, 10:31 PM)babushka Wrote: [...]
[...]
[...]
How will you observer what you can't sense? Sense is registering change. [...]
Well, how I 'see' this is a bit different. I think perception is simply the agglomeration of all data collected from every sensory parts of the body which after being processed, is fed back to consciousness. More specifically, I think consciousness is "registering change", and not perception in itself.
It seems to me that consciousness is a 'function', of the order of quality control, and it tends to focus on changes throughout the sequences of data (the seemingly flowing 'present') it is fed from the brain processes on sensory input. Experience is that 'something' that seems 'beyond' the physical interactions inside the brain, and and those outside the body. There's still an 'inexplicable' quality in experience that is not observable, and hardly describable with words (what I referred in the OP as "that which lies in between words").
(02-28-2026, 09:01 PM)babushka Wrote: I'm still stuck on interface at present. Super quickly probing "Uncertainty", entropy , order. Emergent complexity. 'transitory'. 'actuality' at the interface something like that
thinking about finding fractals in noise patterns
[...]
Eric Ouellet in his book "Illumanitions: The UFO Experience as a Parapsychological Event" theorizes about consciousness being of fractal nature. That is, the 'self' is made of smaller parts, and is part of a greater compound. And each 'layer' could somewhat communicate with the other 'layers' through morphic resonance. I think we already discussed that a bit on DI, if I recall correctly.
In any case, it is always fascinating, so may as well elaborate this here!
RE: Uncertainty, transitory and actuality - babushka - 03-02-2026
(03-01-2026, 02:38 PM)IgnorantGod Wrote: In any case, it is always fascinating, so may as well elaborate this here!
I typed so bad yesterday didn't even get the right words in, but I think you understood. You should try some of the more esoteric reality bending things. This morning I'm thinking the conversation about consciousness isn't possible without talking about what and "where" we are. What is the actual environment?
RE: Uncertainty, transitory and actuality - IgnorantGod - 03-02-2026
(03-02-2026, 04:17 AM)babushka Wrote:(03-01-2026, 02:38 PM)IgnorantGod Wrote: [...]
I typed so bad yesterday didn't even get the right words in, but I think you understood. You should try some of the more esoteric reality bending things. This morning I'm thinking the conversation about consciousness isn't possible without talking about what and "where" we are. What is the actual environment?
There may come a day that I actually start exploring, but for me to endeavor such in any serious manner, I'd assume the necessity of 'cleaning up' certain behaviors that are somewhat detrimental as of now in relation to the effects of doing so.
3 years ago, I've started to get anxiety attacks which were heavily, at least from my observations, influenced by a 'seed' I've sowed 7 years earlier during an ASC (Altered State of Consciousness) that severely weakened my 'mental structure' I had build upon past experiences since birth. I'm on medication to keep that anxiety at a manageable level.
I realized since then that I'm actually attached to it. I'm afraid of 'losing' it, as much as I'm afraid to die, or so I'm led to believe from some 'choices' made during that event 10 years ago. There are other reasons why I'm reluctant to go back to 'exploring', althought the aforementioned is most definitely the 'strongest'.
That feeling of 'isolation' from the 'rest of reality' provoked a deep existencial terror on my ego. I've been somewhat clinging to the remnants of my 'mental structure' ever since. However, it lost some 'features', such as the ability of entertaining any 'certitude' whatsoever, and the 'desire' to experience, or 'become' anything in particular, even to 'solve' my anxiety 'issues' (certainly not an excuse for lack of motivation or laziness, nope).
And then? This may all simply be the 'color of the day' of self-delusion! In any case, I do enjoy discussing the 'limits of consciousness/self', it is fascinating, and 'reality' seems to be of a malleable nature, especially when the 'boundaries of the self' are blurried, and the 'self' is somehow 'bleeding' in the 'environment'.
RE: Uncertainty, transitory and actuality - babushka - 03-02-2026
(03-02-2026, 04:23 PM)IgnorantGod Wrote: There may come a day that I actually start exploring, but for me to endeavor such in any serious manner, I'd assume the necessity of 'cleaning up' certain behaviors that are somewhat detrimental as of now in relation to the effects of doing so.
3 years ago, I've started to get anxiety attacks which were heavily, at least from my observations, influenced by a 'seed' I've sowed 7 years earlier during an ASC (Altered State of Consciousness) that severely weakened my 'mental structure' I had build upon past experiences since birth. I'm on medication to keep that anxiety at a manageable level.
I realized since then that I'm actually attached to it. I'm afraid of 'losing' it, as much as I'm afraid to die, or so I'm led to believe from some 'choices' made during that event 10 years ago. There are other reasons why I'm reluctant to go back to 'exploring', althought the aforementioned is most definitely the 'strongest'.
That feeling of 'isolation' from the 'rest of reality' provoked a deep existencial terror on my ego. I've been somewhat clinging to the remnants of my 'mental structure' ever since. However, it lost some 'features', such as the ability of entertaining any 'certitude' whatsoever, and the 'desire' to experience, or 'become' anything in particular, even to 'solve' my anxiety 'issues' (certainly not an excuse for lack of motivation or laziness, nope).
And then? This may all simply be the 'color of the day' of self-delusion! In any case, I do enjoy discussing the 'limits of consciousness/self', it is fascinating, and 'reality' seems to be of a malleable nature, especially when the 'boundaries of the self' are blurried, and the 'self' is somehow 'bleeding' in the 'environment'.
Are you the observer or the object? When you walk in a forrest everything around you is aware off you and observing you. You change the ambience of any environment that you enter. That seems very connected to me and not isolated at all.
RE: Uncertainty, transitory and actuality - quintessentone - 03-02-2026
Uncertainty:
Well I won't be commenting on Godel's works as I question his mental state and him having to create a new numbering system, namely Godel's numbering, which was proven to be not practical for every day mathematics, makes me question whether or not the language of mathematics is the Holy Grail to finding some truths.
Having said that, I do think we have completeness in our understanding, mathematics and physics but only for our immediate observational universe, which isn't too much. Go further out into the expansiveness and the numbers/reality do not jive. Is this the forever uncertainty that humanity will always have to experience? The certainty here is that it will always lead to instability and controversy for those seeking certainty.
Do we not know what we don't know because we don't know, or will never know, the right questions to ask?
Photons from our bodies are being released into objects, people/planet life and the atmosphere to travel, at light speed, the infinite universe. I am uncertain if those photons keep our memories and experiences and wherever or whatever they end up merging with, will that part of us be a re-emergent us? Is this the spirit energy?
I will resign myself to exploring spirit energy using great and/or insightful thinkers' theories to mull around the possibilities, but ultimately I will believe in my heart, mind and soul what feels and seems most logical to be the truth for me. I will not use my third eye to find the answers because I don't know what I am looking for, which, IgnorantGod, can indeed be anxiety-provoking.
The transitory aspect fits right in with and following uncertainty of the whole, but certainty within some of our immediate proven realities exists now, while we continue to explore and learn.
The actuality aspects also fits right in with proven science within our miniscule place in the cosmos. Our observations/realities are constant here on planet Earth, we can measure and explain what we are observing, except for that spooky action at a distance. Keywords: at a distance, as I touched upon earlier in this post.
I also believe some people's actuality or truths are their specific observations, take the case of multiple witnesses witnessing the same event. No two witness testimonies will be the same as no two people's brains/memories work the same due to many outside factors that are happening at the time of witnessing the event. Take that further, then discussing the event among themselves is more likely than not to form memory contamination.
Actuality needs exact/consistent measurements/observations from properly done experiments. This is where methodology needs to be assessed as to whether it is complete or incomplete. Here again, how can we ask the right questions or plan the right course of finding the true answer if we don't know the right question or path to ask/follow?
RE: Uncertainty, transitory and actuality - IgnorantGod - 03-02-2026
(03-02-2026, 05:04 PM)babushka Wrote:(03-02-2026, 04:23 PM)IgnorantGod Wrote: [...]
That feeling of 'isolation' from the 'rest of reality' provoked a deep existencial terror on my ego. I've been somewhat clinging to the remnants of my 'mental structure' ever since. However, it lost some 'features', such as the ability of entertaining any 'certitude' whatsoever, and the 'desire' to experience, or 'become' anything in particular, even to 'solve' my anxiety 'issues' (certainly not an excuse for lack of motivation or laziness, nope).
[...]
Are you the observer or the object? When you walk in a forrest everything around you is aware off you and observing you. You change the ambience of any environment that you enter. That seems very connected to me and not isolated at all.
I tend to agree with you on this, which is why I used "feeling of". It was, as far as I understand, a perspective from 'me'. The 'isolation' in single quote referred to "something akin, but not really". If I elaborate, it was more about 'not being able to interact in any meaningful way within the human world', and by that I mean both interaction with other humans, and objects with which humans interact on a regular basis.
In simpler terms, I was afraid of the prospect of having to ask myself and define what a "chair" (or anything) is everytime I stumble across one.
(03-02-2026, 05:08 PM)quintessentone Wrote: [...]
I will resign myself to exploring spirit energy using great and/or insightful thinkers' theories to mull around the possibilities, but ultimately I will believe in my heart, mind and soul what feels and seems most logical to be the truth for me. I will not use my third eye to find the answers because I don't know what I am looking for, which, IgnorantGod, can indeed be anxiety-provoking.
[...]
One of the most disturbing aspect of my experience that day was something which I consider similar to the dismemberment phase of a initiation ritual. It felt like a 'dissolution' of the 'self' in the 'pool of potential' of 'what it could be'. I basically got afraid at 'getting stuck in it', not being able to 'come back'. But I did, and here I am!
But considering those past reactions, and choices made, I'd rather avoid doing it carelessly the next time, if it happens. I do perform a small mental exercice several times a day which I stop thinking with words and just 'experience the moment' for 15 minutes or something. I was also considering getting back into meditation lately.
RE: Uncertainty, transitory and actuality - babushka - 03-03-2026
(03-02-2026, 07:16 PM)IgnorantGod Wrote: I tend to agree with you on this, which is why I used "feeling of". It was, as far as I understand, a perspective from 'me'. The 'isolation' in single quote referred to "something akin, but not really". If I elaborate, it was more about 'not being able to interact in any meaningful way within the human world', and by that I mean both interaction with other humans, and objects with which humans interact on a regular basis.
In simpler terms, I was afraid of the prospect of having to ask myself and define what a "chair" (or anything) is everytime I stumble across one.
One of the most disturbing aspect of my experience that day was something which I consider similar to the dismemberment phase of a initiation ritual. It felt like a 'dissolution' of the 'self' in the 'pool of potential' of 'what it could be'. I basically got afraid at 'getting stuck in it', not being able to 'come back'. But I did, and here I am!
But considering those past reactions, and choices made, I'd rather avoid doing it carelessly the next time, if it happens. I do perform a small mental exercice several times a day which I stop thinking with words and just 'experience the moment' for 15 minutes or something. I was also considering getting back into meditation lately.
Thanks for sharing, you gave me lots to think about. Take it easy
RE: Uncertainty, transitory and actuality - quintessentone - 03-03-2026
(03-02-2026, 07:16 PM)IgnorantGod Wrote:(03-02-2026, 05:04 PM)babushka Wrote:(03-02-2026, 04:23 PM)IgnorantGod Wrote: [...]
That feeling of 'isolation' from the 'rest of reality' provoked a deep existencial terror on my ego. I've been somewhat clinging to the remnants of my 'mental structure' ever since. However, it lost some 'features', such as the ability of entertaining any 'certitude' whatsoever, and the 'desire' to experience, or 'become' anything in particular, even to 'solve' my anxiety 'issues' (certainly not an excuse for lack of motivation or laziness, nope).
[...]
Are you the observer or the object? When you walk in a forrest everything around you is aware off you and observing you. You change the ambience of any environment that you enter. That seems very connected to me and not isolated at all.
I tend to agree with you on this, which is why I used "feeling of". It was, as far as I understand, a perspective from 'me'. The 'isolation' in single quote referred to "something akin, but not really". If I elaborate, it was more about 'not being able to interact in any meaningful way within the human world', and by that I mean both interaction with other humans, and objects with which humans interact on a regular basis.
In simpler terms, I was afraid of the prospect of having to ask myself and define what a "chair" (or anything) is everytime I stumble across one.
(03-02-2026, 05:08 PM)quintessentone Wrote: [...]
I will resign myself to exploring spirit energy using great and/or insightful thinkers' theories to mull around the possibilities, but ultimately I will believe in my heart, mind and soul what feels and seems most logical to be the truth for me. I will not use my third eye to find the answers because I don't know what I am looking for, which, IgnorantGod, can indeed be anxiety-provoking.
[...]
One of the most disturbing aspect of my experience that day was something which I consider similar to the dismemberment phase of a initiation ritual. It felt like a 'dissolution' of the 'self' in the 'pool of potential' of 'what it could be'. I basically got afraid at 'getting stuck in it', not being able to 'come back'. But I did, and here I am!
But considering those past reactions, and choices made, I'd rather avoid doing it carelessly the next time, if it happens. I do perform a small mental exercice several times a day which I stop thinking with words and just 'experience the moment' for 15 minutes or something. I was also considering getting back into meditation lately.
Do you know when others say words can't be found or that the words do not exist to express certain existential experiences? I think you found them with 'dismemberment phase of a initiation ritual' and 'deep existential terror', at least for me as those are the exact feelings I felt with the added feeling that I needed to get back for some purpose.
However, right now I am grappling with existential nihilism vs. externalism.
It is a fact that our living bodily energy photons are being released everywhere, out into the universe. Is each and every one of them a part of our spirit? Is everyone's spirit everywhere? Is it the 'all' that we seem to have this deep seated terror or is it really fear of the unknown that death holds for us? Is that how you and I can travel to that place because our energy signature is already a part of it?
I do deep breathing and have restful mind moments, but diving back into deep mediation and those others 'third eye' trips is off the table for me at this point (after those experiences).
I want to believe in an afterlife and after those 'trips' and others strange supernatural events in my life, I feel I already know the that the 'all' exists and that energy is never destroyed, but transformed.
RE: Uncertainty, transitory and actuality - IgnorantGod - 03-03-2026
(03-03-2026, 02:27 PM)quintessentone Wrote:(03-02-2026, 07:16 PM)IgnorantGod Wrote:(03-02-2026, 05:04 PM)babushka Wrote:(03-02-2026, 04:23 PM)IgnorantGod Wrote: [...]
[...]
[...]
(03-02-2026, 05:08 PM)quintessentone Wrote: [...]
[...]
Do you know when others say words can't be found or that the words do not exist to express certain existential experiences? I think you found them with 'dismemberment phase of a initiation ritual' and 'deep existential terror', at least for me as those are the exact feelings I felt with the added feeling that I needed to get back for some purpose.
However, right now I am grappling with existential nihilism vs. externalism.
It is a fact that our living bodily energy photons are being released everywhere, out into the universe. Is each and every one of them a part of our spirit? Is everyone's spirit everywhere? Is it the 'all' that we seem to have this deep seated terror or is it really fear of the unknown that death holds for us? Is that how you and I can travel to that place because our energy signature is already a part of it?
I do deep breathing and have restful mind moments, but diving back into deep mediation and those others 'third eye' trips is off the table for me at this point (after those experiences).
I want to believe in an afterlife and after those 'trips' and others strange supernatural events in my life, I feel I already know the that the 'all' exists and that energy is never destroyed, but transformed.
I had a very hard time describing those experiences the following 2-3 years after the ASC. I was caught in a kind of nihilistic deconstructionism towards human capabilities at elaborating anything more than 'temporal truths', no 'absolute'.
The term 'existencial terror' comes from former ATS member KellyPrettyBear, that mentioned such during one of our conversation in one of his thread. The same goes for the dismemberment phase, which I took from George P. Hansen book "The Trickster and the Paranormal", whereas he tries to elaborate some patterns between initiation rituals and the "Trickster archetype" he formulates in a prior section. Again, it is KPB that referred that book to me, and I'm grateful to him for his suggestions. Seriously, it really "put words where I had none" at that time (also where I first came across the word liminality, and the concept around it).
Your comment on photon is quite interesting! I do believe the 'self' is of illusonal nature, and thus is somewhat 'defined' as a byproduct of the boundaries between 'internal' and 'external', as a 'place' in between. Not entirely formed by the body, and yet not entirely from 'outside' neither, but some kind of collective efforts between 'body' and 'environment'. Light could be somekind of 'carrier' of sort?
RE: Uncertainty, transitory and actuality - quintessentone - 03-05-2026
IG wrote: "Light could be some kind of 'carrier' of sort?"
Light definitely is being used as a carrier and I'm not too sure this is where our photons/energies will end up...on an unsteerable beam of light, or can we hitch a ride on a beam of light without knowing where it will land, or will we know where it will end up?
"In essence, light doesn’t "carry" data like a container; instead, information is encoded in the light’s physical characteristics, which are then detected and decoded at the receiving end"
https://arstechnica.com/science/2012/06/twist-light-carry-terabits-of-data/
Thinking back on my OBE, I was in control whether to travel or float above the Earth. But then terror set in right away, so I returned to my body.
So I'm now thinking it may have something to do with dark energy being the catalyst or rather the carrier for our photons which may possess imprints of our memories of our lives from here - whatever this is. the carrier could be something else that I can't fathom.
Dark energy composes 68% of total mass-energy of the cosmos and drives the expansion of the universe. Doesn't this make sense with the birth and death of energies from all sources which is never destroyed but rather is transformed and yet it has to go somewhere (?)
I don't think the realm (the 'all') where our energies go is unsteerable because then I and other family members would never have received messages from family members from the beyond, so I can't deny an afterlife.
Although, having said that, the after death messages from family members were received with days after their death, so now the question arises does the spirit take days to realize it is set free and then is free to contact the living before it takes (chooses?) a journey/path?
Some say unbelievers of an afterlife should not be cremated until after three days to one week after death to given the spirit time to accept their new transformation.
RE: Uncertainty, transitory and actuality - IgnorantGod - 03-05-2026
(03-05-2026, 01:20 PM)quintessentone Wrote: IG wrote: "Light could be some kind of 'carrier' of sort?"
Light definitely is being used as a carrier and I'm not too sure this is where our photons/energies will end up...on an unsteerable beam of light, or can we hitch a ride on a beam of light without knowing where it will land, or will we know where it will end up?
"In essence, light doesn’t "carry" data like a container; instead, information is encoded in the light’s physical characteristics, which are then detected and decoded at the receiving end"
https://arstechnica.com/science/2012/06/twist-light-carry-terabits-of-data/
Thinking back on my OBE, I was in control whether to travel or float above the Earth. But then terror set in right away, so I returned to my body.
So I'm now thinking it may have something to do with dark energy being the catalyst or rather the carrier for our photons which may possess imprints of our memories of our lives from here - whatever this is. the carrier could be something else that I can't fathom.
Dark energy composes 68% of total mass-energy of the cosmos and drives the expansion of the universe. Doesn't this make sense with the birth and death of energies from all sources which is never destroyed but rather is transformed and yet it has to go somewhere (?)
[...]
Haven't read much about dark energy, however, there is an interesting account in the 8th post of The Gut's thread Electromagnetism, UFOs, and the Weaponization of Alien Technology :
Quote:"7/7/60. Afternoon. This was an experiment I don't want to try again. I was in the charged Faraday cage [copper screen mesh, above ground, D.C. charge: 50 kv. I got out of the physical (body). Ok, then I seemed to be entangled in a large bag made of flexible wire.*Italics mine
The bag gave when I pushed against it, but I couldn't get through it. I struggled like a trapped animal in a snare, and finally went back into the physical. In thinking it over, quite evidently it was not the wire itself, but the electric field pattern set up in fundamentally the same shape as the cage, but more flexible. Maybe this could be the basis for a 'ghost-catcher'!
10/30/60. At about three-fifteen I lay down with the intent of going to visit E.W. in his house some five miles distant. After some difficulty, I managed to move into the vibrational state, then out into the room, away from the physical.
With mental aim at E.W. I took off and moved slowly (comparatively.) I suddenly found myself over a busy street, moving slowly about twenty-five feet above the sidewalk (just above the top edge of the second-story windows). I recognized the street to be the main street of the town, and recognized the block and corner over which I passed. I drifted along the sidewalk for several minutes, and noticed a filling station on the corner, where a white car had both wheels off in front of the two open grease rack doors.
I was disappointed in that I had not gone to E.W., my destination. Seeing nothing else of interest, I decided to return to the physical, and did so without incident. Upon return I sat up and tried to analyze why I had not gone where I intended. On an impulse I got up, went down to the garage, and drove the five miles to his town. My thought was at least to make the trip profitable, and check on what I saw.
I got to the same corner on Main Street, and there was the white car in front of the two open doors. Little evidential pieces like that help! I looked up at the approximate position I had been over the sidewalk, and got a surprise. At just about the exact height I had floated over the sidewalk were power primaries containing fairly high voltage electrical current. Do electrical fields attract this second body? Is this the medium through which it travels?"
The above excerpt, as noted in the thread, comes from the book Ufos Psychic Close Encounters: The Electromagnetic Indictment
Speaking of "second body" carriers, electrical fields seem to at least influence its spacial features. But would they also affect temporal features? Or could another carrier, or a mix of, affects such?
(03-05-2026, 01:20 PM)quintessentone Wrote: I don't think the realm (the 'all') where our energies go is unsteerable because then I and other family members would never have received messages from family members from the beyond, so I can't deny an afterlife.
Although, having said that, the after death messages from family members were received with days after their death, so now the question arises does the spirit take days to realize it is set free and then is free to contact the living before it takes (chooses?) a journey/path?
Some say unbelievers of an afterlife should not be cremated until after three days to one week after death to given the spirit time to accept their new transformation.
I don't think I had an OBE, as far as I can remember. The closest in experience I have, I assume, is flying in a dream, although I'd also remain cautious about differences from the bona fide experience.
Here's a link to the page 3 of a thread made by ATS member KellyPrettyBear, of which I participated at the time. The following page contains an interesting idea about death :
Quote:"IgnorantGod :
a reply to: KellyPrettyBear
Tricksters playing gods, and aircraft, and snakes, and demons.
Never end, always changing trends.
I guess they want some influence for whatever reasons benefit them.
But some humans want it to be "nuts and bolts", for whatever reasons benefit them.
I don't know the truth, but imho Truth with the big 'T' is a None value; it merely gives a foundation for truths to be assumed."
"KellyPrettyBear :
a reply to: IgnorantGod
Let's postulate that when a human dies, some 'EM remnant' survives, and perhaps congregates with similar remnants or with other life forms.
If that were true, we'd be 'punking ourselves' with 'UFOs' more than anything.
That would explain ALL the erratic behavior.
If that were true.
Kev"
"Phage :
a reply to: KellyPrettyBear
We are heavily outnumbered by dead people.
15:1, therebouts.
This figure does not allow for recycling."
The conversation continues further, but what's in quote is enough for this reply. That is, if at death, some 'remnants' of a human consciousness could somehow 'linger around' provided there were some 'strong emotional attachments' or something?
RE: Uncertainty, transitory and actuality - quintessentone - 03-05-2026
Thanks for all that information but many believe that the characteristics of light is not electric, more so closely related to a type of electromagnetic radiation.
They infer that dark energy is a mystery, not radiation nor matter but is a property of space itself.
They say that it is uniform across space and does not dilute as the universe expands through its inferred gravitational effects on cosmic expansion.
So do street lights or electric transformers create electromagnetic gravity to pull our spirit energies to it?
It appears they do create magnetic forces but I also had another OBE in the middle of a busy city intersection where I would assume the vast amount of lighting would create this electromagnetic gravitational pull, but I was raised only slightly off the ground and was not pulled anywhere.
"Scientific Perspective: Light, as an electromagnetic wave, does not interact with external electric or magnetic fields under normal conditions due to the linearity of Maxwell’s equations. However, in extreme environments (e.g., strong gravitational fields or nonlinear materials), minor effects can occur—these are not relevant to street lighting."
https://van.physics.illinois.edu/ask/listing/27133
Then the question becomes, what are our energy photons made of and can they be manipulated by other forces?
RE: Uncertainty, transitory and actuality - nerb - 03-05-2026
(03-05-2026, 04:50 PM)quintessentone Wrote: Thanks for all that information but many believe that the characteristics of light is not electric, more so closely related to a type of electromagnetic radiation.
Just like People?
Here's some out there stuff for fun...
I like to think of Light as the basic elemental form of Life. Living Generations that we could consider as "Iterations", all slightly different because no two things can be the same in the Universe.
The particles are the parents and the waves are the children, created from the forces and energies of the iterated particles as they themselves are created. Those waves are flung out into the world alongside and ahead of the path's trajectory. The waves cannot occupy the main path reserved for particles which is why light appears to follow forward direction by using available and logical steps.
Maybe Light doesn't really "travel", and the speed we understand relates to points of creation, not movement.
Starstuff on a Journey of Iterations destined to be until the last wave is absorbed away from the collective source.
I'd love some feedback and any iterations of this mad theory are welcome.
Enjoy the ride folks!
RE: Uncertainty, transitory and actuality - IgnorantGod - 03-05-2026
(03-05-2026, 05:52 PM)nerb Wrote:(03-05-2026, 04:50 PM)quintessentone Wrote: [...]
[...]
The particles are the parents and the waves are the children, [...]
That specific part somewhat reminds me of classes and objects in Object-Oriented Programming (OOP), whereas classes defines the properties, and objects are iterations of classes. Parents and children in OOP, for those that don't know, are when a class inherits the attributes (variables) and/or methods (functions) of a 'larger' (or a more generalized) class.
For example, you could create a class named "Animal" where you specify some basic attributes such number of legs, has claws (true/false boolean data), etc. Then you create a child class named "Dog" which inherits the basic properties of the parent, and define more if needed.
While studying programmation, I often thought about the similarities with human's conceptualization. How concepts represents an 'image' of something, but each iteration of that something is always fundamentally different than its representation, akin to classes and objects, whereas classes are somekind of 'blueprints', 'setting the stage' so to speak, and each object is unique, has its own values, but most importantly, they are those that 'interact' with the environment (that have effects on more than itself).
Could particles be somekind of 'Platonic Form' and waves are actual 'iterations' of those? That is, only waves interact with the environment. Waves as actors.
ETA : Note that a wave can also be represented as a point circling around a center at a constant speed. In this case, the 'circle' formed by the motion of the point around the center would be the 'blueprint' AKA the particle, each iteration of a particle is the completion of one 'circling'.
RE: Uncertainty, transitory and actuality - quintessentone - 03-05-2026
(03-05-2026, 05:52 PM)nerb Wrote:(03-05-2026, 04:50 PM)quintessentone Wrote: Thanks for all that information but many believe that the characteristics of light is not electric, more so closely related to a type of electromagnetic radiation.
Just like People?
Here's some out there stuff for fun...
I like to think of Light as the basic elemental form of Life. Living Generations that we could consider as "Iterations", all slightly different because no two things can be the same in the Universe.
The particles are the parents and the waves are the children, created from the forces and energies of the iterated particles as they themselves are created. Those waves are flung out into the world alongside and ahead of the path's trajectory. The waves cannot occupy the main path reserved for particles which is why light appears to follow forward direction by using available and logical steps.
Maybe Light doesn't really "travel", and the speed we understand relates to points of creation, not movement.
Starstuff on a Journey of Iterations destined to be until the last wave is absorbed away from the collective source.
I'd love some feedback and any iterations of this mad theory are welcome.
Enjoy the ride folks!
I have no idea what we are made of, maybe a combination of everything - whatever everything consists of?
When light interacts with water, as an example, it slows down, and we are made of water, the most being in the brain and heart at 73%.
We release biophotons:
"Key Findings:
- Source of Light: Biophotons result from biochemical reactions involving free radicals and reactive oxygen species during cell respiration. When excited molecules (like those from lipid peroxidation) interact with fluorophores, they release photons.
- Diurnal Rhythm: Emission intensity follows a 24-hour cycle, peaking in the late afternoon (around 4 PM) and reaching its lowest point at night, linked to the body’s internal circadian clock.
- Brightest Areas: The face, especially the cheeks, forehead, and neck, emits the most light—likely due to higher melanin content, which has fluorescent properties.
- Emotional Influence: Studies show that emotional states like anger can increase biophoton emission, suggesting a potential link between mental states and light output. "
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2707605/
With the universe expanding can there ever be a collective source?